tell me more what does it matter

Being rebellious against man-made doctrine, is again, Biblically sound.

Okay. First off, you must realize that, just like any other religious movements,

 there are many many different brands.

 This goes for HRM, Messianic-Judaism, Judaism, Christianity, Catholicism, Buddhism, etc. etc. It is not really fair that you label all with issues you have of some.

 points of contention:

–They troll our churches and pick off those . . .–

Well now. Seems you hit the ground running with the ugly rhetoric.

 As far as I know, no one “trolls” churches.

 Everyone I know has come to the realization on their own accord. Every single testimony that I have heard . . . they all say the same thing.
Granted, their may be some who do what you say, but it is a very far cry from the all-inclusiveness, which you claim.
–who are discontent with their church, wounded by their church–

So if one does not agree with what their church leaders are saying, or are hurt by their brothers, they should just suck it up, and continue on?

 2 John 1:7-11 says we should not even greet someone who gives false teachings and doctrine.

 1 Timothy 6 says to flee from contradictory teachings and from those who have an unhealthy craving for controversy and for quarrels about words, which produce envy, dissension, slander, evil suspicions, and constant friction among people who are depraved in mind and deprived of the truth, imagining that godliness is a means of gain.

So are we to follow God’s word, or follow man, no matter what?
–are rebellious in one way or another,–

Rebellious against what, exactly? Against man’s dogma, or against the Word?

Those born and raised a Baptist

 were taught that dancing and drinking any kind of alcohol was a sin.

 So  did due diligence. Psalm 149:3 and 150:4 give examples of dancing in worship and praise of God. Jesus turned water into wine (ahem, alcohol) at Caanan, and he had wine (alcohol) at His last supper.

 So if the Bible is the word of God, that must mean that he approves of both activities (of course with regards to appropriateness of time and self control, as with everything in life, according to His word).
The prohibitions were/are extra-biblical, and therefore, not a sin.

I was considered rebellious by my brothers and sisters,  I was rebellious, against man made doctrine.

 I was right in line with God’s word.

 Being rebellious against man-made doctrine, is again, Biblically sound.
– or simply have itchy ears.–

There are people like that in every group. They only want to hear what makes them feel good.

 To assert that this is the fault of protestants is disingenuous at best.

– Then there are those believers who succumb to the “If you really love God, you will . . . ” appeal, –

Finish it off. If you really love God, you will keep his commandments.

 The words of Jesus affirm this. SO you are upset because people are succumbing to the words and teachings of Jesus?

–Those who say that we must walk in Torah as Yeshua/Jesus Christ did are teaching that before the work of Christ, man was not able to keep the Law, but that after the work of Christ, enabled by His Holy Spirit, we are able to keep the Law –

This is false. What most teachers say is that the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is everlasting life. Man could not, and can never, completely keep the law. In OT times, if one sinned (broke the law), they were dead. With the sacrifice of Jesus, if one sins, His blood gives us grace from the death penalty.

–We cannot. It is not possible. Jesus Christ is God. He is perfect. He is sinless. We are not God –
Indeed. But you totally miss the point.

 Even the basic meaning of Christianity is to be Christ-like. WWJD. Remember that?

 Jesus followed the Law. He came not to abolish the law, but to fulfill it. To live it perfectly. If we are to try our best to emulate Jesus (which we should do, according to Paul), than we should try and live as he did. We will never be perfect, but that does not mean to not even try.

–To say/think/believe that we can walk as Jesus walked in the way of the Law is folly,–
No one believes that we can be a perfect imitator of Jesus.

 But even Paul tells us we should try our hardest to do as such.
– and not at all how Jesus Himself commanded us to walk!–


Matthew 23:1-3 – “Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples: ‘The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. So you must obey them and do everything they tell you.

 But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach.’”

2 Timothy 3:16 – “All scripture is inspired by God and is useful for teaching, for refutation, for correction, and for training in righteousness…”

Matthew 5:19 – “Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.”

Jesus Himself, commands us to follow the law to the best of our ability. Any deviations are covered by grace, instead of death.

–We hear constantly from those in the  (fill in the blank),

“How do we know what sin is, anyway?” –

I have never heard anyone  ask this, but I will address it anyways.

1 John 3:4 – Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness.

Oh my. Sin is breaking, violating, disobeying and/or transgressing the law. Torah = law. So sin is when one violates Torah.
–From there they live, breathe, and eat Torah Law.–

Yes, because that is what Jesus said to do.

– While saying that Jesus’ Blood is for our salvation, they leave Him at the curb and turn to Torah for sanctification,–

No, Jesus is not left at the curb.

 The Torah sanctifies nothing. Jesus’ grace is our sanctification.

 We live by Torah, because that is what God commanded, and re-commanded through Jesus. Transgressions on Torah (sin) is covered by the blood of Jesus.

–not relying on the Holy Spirit that Jesus promised would come to be our Helper and Counselor, leading His Body into all truth–

We do rely on the Holy Spirit to guide us in what is right for our lives. 

 Another ridiculous statement.

–Instead, those who advocate Torah observance tell us that unless we live by Torah, we are engaging in willful sin–

the came cammandment is in the roman catholic church–

 if you don’t obey all the ordinances – special day, special mass’s Sunday mass–
then you are engaging in willful sin

Well, technically, according to 1 John 3:4, those that do not follow Torah, ARE engaging in willful sin..

 That does not mean that they are not going to Heaven, or anything like that.

 They are God’s child. They are covered by grace, But yet, because they failed to follow the commandments, they will be the least in Heaven, according to Jesus (Matthew 5:19).
– We are told by those who are studying ‘their Hebrew Roots’, “Did God really say . . . “ –

No, we are discerning, which Paul, quite bluntly, tells us to do.

Or would you prefer to follow blindly?

–when it comes to the New Covenant or Who Jesus Christ really is (many say He is the ‘Living Torah’).–

Did Jesus not follow Torah (the law) perfectly?

 Is He not living?

 If you answered yes to both, then you admit that Jesus is the living Torah.

–For the believer in the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, the methods utilized in the practice of Kabbalah are strictly off limits.

Even a cursory examination of the practice of Kabbalah will confirm this.

 I always marvel at the stand (fill in the blank) will take against perceived paganism in the celebrations of the Birth and Resurrection of Christ,

 but how they will not give the same examination to many of the beliefs in  to which they ascribe. (For more on this topic, see,

 “Doublemindedness in any religious Movement –.)–

As such, even Revelation tells us “those that have wisdom are to count the number of the beast.”

The Parables that Jesus spoke . . . the same ones tha even every Christian hears in Sunday School . . . were spoken with PaRDeS. Furthermore, to teach them, one must use PaRDeS.

Pardes (Jewish exegesis)

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Pardes refers to (types of) approaches to biblical exegesis in rabbinic Judaism (or – simpler – interpretation of text in Torah study). The term, sometimes also spelled PaRDeS, is an acronym formed from the name initials of the following four approaches:

  • Peshat (פְּשָׁט) — “plain” (“simple”) or the direct meaning.[1]
  • Remez (רֶמֶז) — “hints” or the deep (allegoric: hidden or symbolic) meaning beyond just the literal sense.
  • Derash (דְּרַשׁ) — from Hebrew darash: “inquire” (“seek”) — the comparative (midrashic) meaning, as given through similar occurrences.
  • Sod (סוֹד) (pronounced with a long O as in ‘bone’) — “secret” (“mystery”) or the esoteric/mystical meaning, as given through inspiration or revelation.

Each type of Pardes interpretation examines the extended meaning of a text. As a general rule, the extended meaning never contradicts the base meaning. The Peshat means the plain or contextual meaning of the text. Remez is the allegorical meaning. Derash includes the metaphorical meaning, and Sod represents the hidden meaning. There is often considerable overlap, for example when legal understandings of a verse are influenced by mystical interpretations or when a “hint” is determined by comparing a word with other instances of the same word.
Some thinkers, such as the Tolaat Yaakov, divide Pardes into Peshat, Remez, Din (law), and Sod. According to this understanding, Derash is divided into the homiletics, which are classified under Remez, and legal interpretations, which are classified under Din.

– For example, many teachers in the hebrew roots movement teach the

‘Two House Theology’ or the ‘Northern Kingdom’ bit.

 That teaching is a re-hash of British Israelism with a Hebrew Roots twist.

 Most of it is taken straight from the Worldwide Church of God, aka Armstronism. –

Actually, if you would do your diligence, you would find that two-house is scripturally sound, and has NOTHING to do with British-Israelism.

 Even Jews, including the government of Israel, believe that there is a lost 10 tribes out there somewhere.

 Heck, Jesus Himself said that He came for the lost tribes.

Furthermore, Ezekiel 37 and Romans 11 confirm the teaching of Believers being grafted into Israel.

roman catholic was replacement theology.

If you do not with to see the truth set before you, that is fine.

It is your life, and you must deal with the consequences of your choices, just as I must deal with mine.

But for the love of all that is good, please do some basic research before you decide to slander a whole group of people who are trying to follow the Word of God.


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