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FROM: Confirmation Do you know what it does [forwarded]

 
 
 
 
 

 

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Wednesday, October 23, 2013

 

http://marysaggies.blogspot.com/2013/10/do-you-know-what-confirmation-is-and.html

Do You Know What Confirmation Is And What It Does?

First off, the best place to start exploring Confirmation is to begin by exploring what both the Sacraments of Baptism and Confirmation are and are not.

Baptism is the first of the Sacraments of Initiation, that is, a Sacrament which cleanses our souls of the guilt (not the stain) of original sin, makes us partakers of the Divine Nature, brings us into the family of God (the Church), makes us sons and daughters of the Father & brothers and sisters of Christ, and it gives us sanctifying and actual grace. It is not complete in the sense that it doesn’t give us every grace we need to have a mature Christian faith. Rather, it is the gateway into a Christian and Sacramental life.

The Catechism describes Baptism in this way:

1213 “Holy Baptism is the basis of the whole Christian life, the gateway to life in the Spirit (vitae spiritualis ianua), and the door which gives access to the other sacraments. Through Baptism we are freed from sin and reborn as sons of God; we become members of Christ, are incorporated into the Church and made sharers in her mission: “Baptism is the sacrament of regeneration through water in the word.”

Baptism is not intended by Christ to do everything for us in the spiritual life, but to start the process of living a life bound to Him and the Church.

Confirmation is the strengthening process of the graces we already received in baptism. It is NOT just an affirmation of the person getting confirmed, as if it is about what we do – but more about what Christ does for us. Most Catholics believe it to be the other way around. They incorrectly view Confirmation as our “choosing Christ” and about our desire to be Catholic.

In reality, the traditional ordering of the Sacraments is Baptism – Confirmation – Eucharist. Only in the last 100 years or so has the process changed to have Confirmation come after Eucharist. But, there is a trend, in some areas of the Church, to reverse this.

In Vatican II, the Church taught the following:

“They are more perfectly bound to the Church by the sacrament of Confirmation, and the Holy Spirit endows them with special strength so that they are more strictly obliged to spread and defend the faith, both by word and by deed, as true witnesses of Christ” (LG, 11)

This teaching about how we become evangelists, full of the Holy Spirit, who go out into the world to preach and live the Gospel comes straight from the Bible:

“When the apostles in Jerusalem heard that Samaria had accepted the word of God, they sent Peter and John to them. When they arrived, they prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit, because the Holy Spirit had not yet come upon any of them; they had simply been baptized into the name of the Lord Jesus. Then Peter and John placed their hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.” – Acts 8: 14 – 17

We see here that Baptism isn’t complete nor is it all there is. The laying on of hands (Confirmation) was needed for the completion of the Sacrament and the coming of the power of the Holy Spirit. This is what happens in Confirmation. It is the same thing that happened to the Apostles at Pentecost. Once they received the Holy Spirit they immediately went out and preached.

The Catechism states:

CCC, 1303 “From this fact, Confirmation brings an increase and deepening of baptismal grace:
– it roots us more deeply in the divine filiation which makes us cry, “Abba! Father!”;
– it unites us more firmly to Christ;
– it increases the gifts of the Holy Spirit in us;
– it renders our bond with the Church more perfect;
– it gives us a special strength of the Holy Spirit to spread and defend the faith by word and action as true witnesses of Christ, to confess the name of Christ boldly, and never to be ashamed of the Cross:”

So, in the sense that our Baptism isn’t enough to complete (but rather begin) our initiation into Christ, it isn’t enough. In the sense that Baptism does what Christ intended it to do (begin the life of grace) – it is enough.

Fr. Barron tells us even more

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    catholic answers forum working4christ2 with bill My Holy Spirit is right yours in wrong”
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    Old Today, 2:57 pm
    Adamski Adamski is online now
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    Join Date: September 9, 2011
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    Default “My Holy Spirit is right yours in wrong”
    I had the most bizarre conversation of my life yesterday at Starbucks

    Ill start off by discussing how I met the person I talked to for over 90 minutes and it could have gone for ever if I didn’t need to go.
    “I See Things”

     

    About a month ago I was praying for a local Protestant church that is very anti-catholic
    Mars hill in Seattle.
    During praying the rosary I heard a voice say that I needed to go to their bible studies at their church. I signed up and went to one. Right away as I met everyone it was almost like I knew why I was called to be there. I sensed that a person I was talking to was a confirmed catholic. He was also the bible study leader. As the bible study progressed my thoughts where confirmed when the group leader said he was a confirmed catholic then he got into the occult and finally he was “saved” at mars hill.

    A couple of days after the bible study I called him to see if he would meet one on one because I wanted to here why he was a Christian and why he went to mars hill.

    Then yesterday we met at Starbucks ill briefly go into the part of our conversation that was very strange for me. Also he is extremely bright and works at Microsoft

    I asked him why he is a Christian
    His response was “the Holy Spirit confirmed it when I read the bible”

    I responded “last week I talked I talked to a Mormon and they said “the spirit confirmed the Book of Mormon, you both cant be right”

    His response “well I’m right and they are wrong”

    I responded “I’m a Christian because history, logic, science, and theology all point to it being true so because it is true I have no choice other to be Christian because I love and seek the truth”

    Then I asked “why did you pick mars hill over 38,000 different Christian choices”

    He responded “the spirit has guided me there because of the bible”

    I said “how do you know the bible is true unless you have a church to guide you as in 1 Tim 3:15, and further how do you know what books should be in the bible”

    I know he wasn’t just playing a joke on me he also got very angry at me when I told him how great the sacraments where in my life and showed him where the Eucharist and confession was in the bible

    Any thoughts on this??
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    Old Today, 3:31 pm
    billgeib billgeib is online now
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    Join Date: September 19, 2013
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    Default Re: “My Holy Spirit is right yours in wrong”
    comparing the morman religion “vs” a christian is incorrect

    it is like comparing oranges and apples–

    that being said– really it is comparing catholic “vs” Christian

    Numbers 11:29

    New International Version (NIV)

    29 But Moses replied, “Are you jealous for my sake? I wish that all the Lord’s people were prophets and that the Lord would put his Spirit on them!”

    1 Samuel 10

    9 As Saul turned to leave Samuel, God changed Saul’s heart, and all these signs were fulfilled that day. 10 When he and his servant arrived at Gibeah, a procession of prophets met him; the Spirit of God came powerfully upon him, and he joined in their prophesying. 11 When all those who had formerly known him saw him prophesying with the prophets, they asked each other, “What is this that has happened to the son of Kish?

    Acts 19

    “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when[a] you believed?”

    They answered, “No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit.”

    3 So Paul asked, “Then what baptism did you receive?”

    “John’s baptism,” they replied.

    4 Paul said, “John’s baptism was a baptism of repentance. He told the people to believe in the one coming after him, that is, in Jesus.” 5 On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6 When Paul placed his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they spoke in tongues[b] and prophesied.

    Is Saul also among the prophets?”

    12 A man who lived there answered, “And who is their father?” So it became a saying: “Is Saul also among the prophets?”

    13 After Saul stopped prophesying, he went to the high place.

    finally because you have not experienced the “new birth” or born again- or born above–that christians experience

    So any thing he says you will not comprehend — because it is out side of your spiritual experience– and your catholic religious training

    Romans 8

    8 Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus,

    9 You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you.

    14 For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God.
    1 Corinthians 2
    God’s Wisdom Revealed by the Spirit
    10 these are the things God has revealed to us by his Spirit.

    12 What we have received is not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may understand what God has freely given us.

    Colossians 2:8

    See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the elemental spiritual forces of this world rather than on Christ.

    this is why being raised and taught a catholic — your understanding is going to be different

    than christians who are seeking a personal relationship with jesus with the promice of the Holy Spirit–

    Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message
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    Old Today, 3:54 pm
    Adamski Adamski is online now
    Regular Member

    Join Date: September 9, 2011
    Location: Seattle
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    Default Re: “My Holy Spirit is right yours in wrong”
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by billgeib View Post
    comparing the morman religion “vs” a christian is incorrect

    it is like comparing oranges and apples–

    that being said– really it is comparing catholic “vs” Christian

    Numbers 11:29

    New International Version (NIV)

    29 But Moses replied, “Are you jealous for my sake? I wish that all the Lord’s people were prophets and that the Lord would put his Spirit on them!”

    1 Samuel 10

    9 As Saul turned to leave Samuel, God changed Saul’s heart, and all these signs were fulfilled that day. 10 When he and his servant arrived at Gibeah, a procession of prophets met him; the Spirit of God came powerfully upon him, and he joined in their prophesying. 11 When all those who had formerly known him saw him prophesying with the prophets, they asked each other, “What is this that has happened to the son of Kish?

    Acts 19

    “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when[a] you believed?”

    They answered, “No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit.”

    3 So Paul asked, “Then what baptism did you receive?”

    “John’s baptism,” they replied.

    4 Paul said, “John’s baptism was a baptism of repentance. He told the people to believe in the one coming after him, that is, in Jesus.” 5 On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6 When Paul placed his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they spoke in tongues[b] and prophesied.

    Is Saul also among the prophets?”

    12 A man who lived there answered, “And who is their father?” So it became a saying: “Is Saul also among the prophets?”

    13 After Saul stopped prophesying, he went to the high place.

    finally because you have not experienced the “new birth” or born again- or born above–that christians experience

    So any thing he says you will not comprehend — because it is out side of your spiritual experience– and your catholic religious training

    Romans 8

    8 Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus,

    9 You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you.

    14 For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God.
    1 Corinthians 2
    God’s Wisdom Revealed by the Spirit
    10 these are the things God has revealed to us by his Spirit.

    12 What we have received is not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may understand what God has freely given us.

    Colossians 2:8

    See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the elemental spiritual forces of this world rather than on Christ.

    this is why being raised and taught a catholic — your understanding is going to be different

    than christians who are seeking a personal relationship with jesus with the promice of the Holy Spirit–

     

    There are currently 38,000 different Protestant denominations all using sola scriptoria as their rule of faith and all claiming to be right……. Only two choices are possible
    one is right and 37,999 are wrong or they are all wrong……

    Also I may have been baptized when i was young catholic but knew very little of the Catholic Church until I was 34 after spending 7 years at evangelical churches seeing how from a logical perspective Protestantism and sola scriptoria is set up for failure and that was what lead me to the Catholic Church
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    Old Today, 4:05 pm
    Randy Carson’s Avatar
    Randy Carson Randy Carson is offline
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    Default Re: “My Holy Spirit is right yours in wrong”
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Adamski View Post
    I had the most bizarre conversation of my life yesterday at Starbucks

    Ill start off by discussing how I met the person I talked to for over 90 minutes and it could have gone for ever if I didn’t need to go.

    About a month ago I was praying for a local Protestant church that is very anti-catholic
    Mars hill in Seattle.
    During praying the rosary I heard a voice say that I needed to go to their bible studies at their church. I signed up and went to one. Right away as I met everyone it was almost like I knew why I was called to be there. I sensed that a person I was talking to was a confirmed catholic. He was also the bible study leader. As the bible study progressed my thoughts where confirmed when the group leader said he was a confirmed catholic then he got into the occult and finally he was “saved” at mars hill.

    A couple of days after the bible study I called him to see if he would meet one on one because I wanted to here why he was a Christian and why he went to mars hill.

    Then yesterday we met at Starbucks ill briefly go into the part of our conversation that was very strange for me. Also he is extremely bright and works at Microsoft

    I asked him why he is a Christian
    His response was “the Holy Spirit confirmed it when I read the bible”

    I responded “last week I talked I talked to a Mormon and they said “the spirit confirmed the Book of Mormon, you both cant be right”

    His response “well I’m right and they are wrong”

    I responded “I’m a Christian because history, logic, science, and theology all point to it being true so because it is true I have no choice other to be Christian because I love and seek the truth”

    Then I asked “why did you pick mars hill over 38,000 different Christian choices”

    He responded “the spirit has guided me there because of the bible”

    I said “how do you know the bible is true unless you have a church to guide you as in 1 Tim 3:15, and further how do you know what books should be in the bible”

    I know he wasn’t just playing a joke on me he also got very angry at me when I told him how great the sacraments where in my life and showed him where the Eucharist and confession was in the bible

    Any thoughts on this??
    Burning in the bosom v. led by the Spirit…Different lingo…same process.

    However, it could well be that the Spirit did lead the guy to Mars Hill but he can’t express it very well. OTOH…

    I think you did well. Think he will meet with you again?
    __________________
    Tiber Swim Team – Class of ’79
    RESOLVED: I will spend my time here explaining and defending the Catholic faith with charity and clarity; otherwise, I will remain silent.
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    Old Today, 4:06 pm
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    benjohnson benjohnson is offline
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    Join Date: May 16, 2012
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    Default Re: “My Holy Spirit is right yours in wrong”
    Adamski, you have a lot of vigor for your faith! Keep it up!

    Franlky, that your debating companion got frustrated just by the subject alone indicates that you really must have struck a chord. I pray that he seeks the Eucharist in God’s time.

    Quote:
    one is right and 37,999 are wrong or they are all wrong……
    Why yes… one is right! That would be the LC-MS
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    Old Today, 4:08 pm
    dronald dronald is offline
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    Default Re: “My Holy Spirit is right yours in wrong”
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Adamski View Post
    There are currently 38,000 different Protestant denominations all using sola scriptoria as their rule of faith and all claiming to be right……. Only two choices are possible
    one is right and 37,999 are wrong or they are all wrong……

    Also I may have been baptized when i was young catholic but knew very little of the Catholic Church until I was 34 after spending 7 years at evangelical churches seeing how from a logical perspective Protestantism and sola scriptoria is set up for failure and that was what lead me to the Catholic Church
    I don’t like this way of thinking. Different cultures will equal different styles of worship which in turn will bring along different Churches and styles of Churches. Our core Trinitarian beliefs are what hold us together no matter what, and most Protestants accept that all of those Churches can be saved through Jesus Christ, as do Catholics.

    I don’t see where the separation is.
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    Old Today, 4:52 pm
    billgeib billgeib is online now
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    Default Re: “My Holy Spirit is right yours in wrong”
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Adamski View Post
    There are currently 38,000 different Protestant denominations all using sola scriptoria as their rule of faith and all claiming to be right……. Only two choices are possible

    one is right and 37,999 are wrong or they are all wrong……

    Also I may have been baptized when i was young catholic but knew very little of the Catholic Church until I was 34 after spending 7 years at evangelical churches seeing how from a logical perspective Protestantism and sola scriptoria is set up for failure and that was what lead me to the Catholic Church
    i sorry– i guess you missed the point-

    there is a educational component that is different between the belief systems,

    of catholic and christian

    this is not a debate on what you perceive as the difference of the denominations

    as Saint Paul said if you have the Holy Spirit you are different than those who do not have it

    some christians also use mark 16

    15 He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. 16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. 17 And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; 18 they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well.”

    i hope this has cleared up what the comparison is–

    and this comparison is a reason why many people leave the catholic demonination and seek out what might be called a spirit filled denomination, or christian assembly

    you don’t have to get defensive on this– so you believe he ‘s wrong– that in it self won;t matter to a christian who is spirit filled
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    Unread Today, 4:55 pm
    Adamski Adamski is online now
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    Default Re: “My Holy Spirit is right yours in wrong”
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by benjohnson View Post
    Adamski, you have a lot of vigor for your faith! Keep it up!

    Franlky, that your debating companion got frustrated just by the subject alone indicates that you really must have struck a chord. I pray that he seeks the Eucharist in God’s time.

    Why yes… one is right! That would be the LC-MS
    Well if I weren’t Roman Catholic I’d have to consider your tradition
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    Unread Today, 4:56 pm
    Adamski Adamski is online now
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    Default Re: “My Holy Spirit is right yours in wrong”
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Randy Carson View Post
    Burning in the bosom v. led by the Spirit…Different lingo…same process.

    However, it could well be that the Spirit did lead the guy to Mars Hill but he can’t express it very well. OTOH…

    I think you did well. Think he will meet with you again?
    I’m going to text him right now and ask
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    Unread Today, 4:58 pm
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    Default Re: “My Holy Spirit is right yours in wrong”
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by dronald View Post
    I don’t like this way of thinking. Different cultures will equal different styles of worship which in turn will bring along different Churches and styles of Churches. Our core Trinitarian beliefs are what hold us together no matter what, and most Protestants accept that all of those Churches can be saved through Jesus Christ, as do Catholics.

    I don’t see where the separation is.
    Interesting. So is it your view that the doctrine of the Trinity is the defining belief of a Christian? How did you arrive at such a belief?
    __________________
    “Let the time come when those who should oblige the servant of God, do the contrary to him, and what degree of patience and humility he has then, that is the degree he has and no more.” – St. Francis of Assisi
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    Default Re: “My Holy Spirit is right yours in wrong”
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Randy Carson View Post
    Burning in the bosom v. led by the Spirit…Different lingo…same process.

    However, it could well be that the Spirit did lead the guy to Mars Hill but he can’t express it very well. OTOH…

    I think you did well. Think he will meet with you again?
    thank you randy — after seeing how many posts you have–

    it is interesting to see your miss understanding

    of being led by the Holy Spirit “VS” the Mormon burning in the breast wittness of the authenticity of joseph smith as a prophet

    they are comparing apples and oranges–

    but you believe other wise– oh well–

    i don’t know how well you function in the prophetic–

    i only know of 1 roman catholic priest that has been successful as a type of evangelic teacher–

    but at the moment i can’t remember his name–

    but he does teach , instruct and educate people in how to hear the voice of God and to walk in the fullness of the Spirit– with signs and wonders–

    but i’ll get back on it– and you can view his u tube training seminar info, and make your own evaluation

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catholic answers forum working4christ2 with bill My Holy Spirit is right yours in wrong”

 

catholic answers forum working4christ2 with bill My Holy Spirit is right yours in wrong”

 
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Old Today, 2:57 pm
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Default “My Holy Spirit is right yours in wrong”

I had the most bizarre conversation of my life yesterday at Starbucks

Ill start off by discussing how I met the person I talked to for over 90 minutes and it could have gone for ever if I didn’t need to go.

About a month ago I was praying for a local Protestant church that is very anti-catholic
Mars hill in Seattle.
During praying the rosary I heard a voice say that I needed to go to their bible studies at their church. I signed up and went to one. Right away as I met everyone it was almost like I knew why I was called to be there. I sensed that a person I was talking to was a confirmed catholic. He was also the bible study leader. As the bible study progressed my thoughts where confirmed when the group leader said he was a confirmed catholic then he got into the occult and finally he was “saved” at mars hill.

A couple of days after the bible study I called him to see if he would meet one on one because I wanted to here why he was a Christian and why he went to mars hill.

Then yesterday we met at Starbucks ill briefly go into the part of our conversation that was very strange for me. Also he is extremely bright and works at Microsoft

I asked him why he is a Christian
His response was “the Holy Spirit confirmed it when I read the bible”

I responded “last week I talked I talked to a Mormon and they said “the spirit confirmed the Book of Mormon, you both cant be right”

His response “well I’m right and they are wrong”

I responded “I’m a Christian because history, logic, science, and theology all point to it being true so because it is true I have no choice other to be Christian because I love and seek the truth”

Then I asked “why did you pick mars hill over 38,000 different Christian choices”

He responded “the spirit has guided me there because of the bible”

I said “how do you know the bible is true unless you have a church to guide you as in 1 Tim 3:15, and further how do you know what books should be in the bible”

I know he wasn’t just playing a joke on me he also got very angry at me when I told him how great the sacraments where in my life and showed him where the Eucharist and confession was in the bible

Any thoughts on this??

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Old Today, 3:31 pm
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Default Re: “My Holy Spirit is right yours in wrong”

comparing the morman religion “vs” a christian is incorrect

it is like comparing oranges and apples–

that being said– really it is comparing catholic “vs” Christian

Numbers 11:29

New International Version (NIV)

29 But Moses replied, “Are you jealous for my sake? I wish that all the Lord’s people were prophets and that the Lord would put his Spirit on them!”

1 Samuel 10

9 As Saul turned to leave Samuel, God changed Saul’s heart, and all these signs were fulfilled that day. 10 When he and his servant arrived at Gibeah, a procession of prophets met him; the Spirit of God came powerfully upon him, and he joined in their prophesying. 11 When all those who had formerly known him saw him prophesying with the prophets, they asked each other, “What is this that has happened to the son of Kish?

Acts 19

“Did you receive the Holy Spirit when[a] you believed?”

They answered, “No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit.”

3 So Paul asked, “Then what baptism did you receive?”

“John’s baptism,” they replied.

4 Paul said, “John’s baptism was a baptism of repentance. He told the people to believe in the one coming after him, that is, in Jesus.” 5 On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6 When Paul placed his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they spoke in tongues[b] and prophesied.

Is Saul also among the prophets?”

12 A man who lived there answered, “And who is their father?” So it became a saying: “Is Saul also among the prophets?”

13 After Saul stopped prophesying, he went to the high place.

finally because you have not experienced the “new birth” or born again- or born above–that christians experience

So any thing he says you will not comprehend — because it is out side of your spiritual experience– and your catholic religious training

Romans 8

8 Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus,

9 You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you.

14 For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God.
1 Corinthians 2
God’s Wisdom Revealed by the Spirit
10 these are the things God has revealed to us by his Spirit.

12 What we have received is not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may understand what God has freely given us.

Colossians 2:8

See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the elemental spiritual forces of this world rather than on Christ.

this is why being raised and taught a catholic — your understanding is going to be different

than christians who are seeking a personal relationship with jesus with the promice of the Holy Spirit–

http://youtu.be/Oj3VphK9AMk

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Old Today, 3:54 pm
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Default Re: “My Holy Spirit is right yours in wrong”

Quote:
Originally Posted by billgeib View Post
comparing the morman religion “vs” a christian is incorrect

it is like comparing oranges and apples–

that being said– really it is comparing catholic “vs” Christian

Numbers 11:29

New International Version (NIV)

29 But Moses replied, “Are you jealous for my sake? I wish that all the Lord’s people were prophets and that the Lord would put his Spirit on them!”

1 Samuel 10

9 As Saul turned to leave Samuel, God changed Saul’s heart, and all these signs were fulfilled that day. 10 When he and his servant arrived at Gibeah, a procession of prophets met him; the Spirit of God came powerfully upon him, and he joined in their prophesying. 11 When all those who had formerly known him saw him prophesying with the prophets, they asked each other, “What is this that has happened to the son of Kish?

Acts 19

“Did you receive the Holy Spirit when[a] you believed?”

They answered, “No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit.”

3 So Paul asked, “Then what baptism did you receive?”

“John’s baptism,” they replied.

4 Paul said, “John’s baptism was a baptism of repentance. He told the people to believe in the one coming after him, that is, in Jesus.” 5 On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6 When Paul placed his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they spoke in tongues[b] and prophesied.

Is Saul also among the prophets?”

12 A man who lived there answered, “And who is their father?” So it became a saying: “Is Saul also among the prophets?”

13 After Saul stopped prophesying, he went to the high place.

finally because you have not experienced the “new birth” or born again- or born above–that christians experience

So any thing he says you will not comprehend — because it is out side of your spiritual experience– and your catholic religious training

Romans 8

8 Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus,

9 You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you.

14 For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God.
1 Corinthians 2
God’s Wisdom Revealed by the Spirit
10 these are the things God has revealed to us by his Spirit.

12 What we have received is not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may understand what God has freely given us.

Colossians 2:8

See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the elemental spiritual forces of this world rather than on Christ.

this is why being raised and taught a catholic — your understanding is going to be different

than christians who are seeking a personal relationship with jesus with the promice of the Holy Spirit–

http://youtu.be/Oj3VphK9AMk

There are currently 38,000 different Protestant denominations all using sola scriptoria as their rule of faith and all claiming to be right……. Only two choices are possible
one is right and 37,999 are wrong or they are all wrong……

Also I may have been baptized when i was young catholic but knew very little of the Catholic Church until I was 34 after spending 7 years at evangelical churches seeing how from a logical perspective Protestantism and sola scriptoria is set up for failure and that was what lead me to the Catholic Church

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Default Re: “My Holy Spirit is right yours in wrong”

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I had the most bizarre conversation of my life yesterday at Starbucks

Ill start off by discussing how I met the person I talked to for over 90 minutes and it could have gone for ever if I didn’t need to go.

About a month ago I was praying for a local Protestant church that is very anti-catholic
Mars hill in Seattle.
During praying the rosary I heard a voice say that I needed to go to their bible studies at their church. I signed up and went to one. Right away as I met everyone it was almost like I knew why I was called to be there. I sensed that a person I was talking to was a confirmed catholic. He was also the bible study leader. As the bible study progressed my thoughts where confirmed when the group leader said he was a confirmed catholic then he got into the occult and finally he was “saved” at mars hill.

A couple of days after the bible study I called him to see if he would meet one on one because I wanted to here why he was a Christian and why he went to mars hill.

Then yesterday we met at Starbucks ill briefly go into the part of our conversation that was very strange for me. Also he is extremely bright and works at Microsoft

I asked him why he is a Christian
His response was “the Holy Spirit confirmed it when I read the bible”

I responded “last week I talked I talked to a Mormon and they said “the spirit confirmed the Book of Mormon, you both cant be right”

His response “well I’m right and they are wrong”

I responded “I’m a Christian because history, logic, science, and theology all point to it being true so because it is true I have no choice other to be Christian because I love and seek the truth”

Then I asked “why did you pick mars hill over 38,000 different Christian choices”

He responded “the spirit has guided me there because of the bible”

I said “how do you know the bible is true unless you have a church to guide you as in 1 Tim 3:15, and further how do you know what books should be in the bible”

I know he wasn’t just playing a joke on me he also got very angry at me when I told him how great the sacraments where in my life and showed him where the Eucharist and confession was in the bible

Any thoughts on this??

Burning in the bosom v. led by the Spirit…Different lingo…same process.

However, it could well be that the Spirit did lead the guy to Mars Hill but he can’t express it very well. OTOH…

I think you did well. Think he will meet with you again?

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Default Re: “My Holy Spirit is right yours in wrong”

Adamski, you have a lot of vigor for your faith! Keep it up!

Franlky, that your debating companion got frustrated just by the subject alone indicates that you really must have struck a chord. I pray that he seeks the Eucharist in God’s time.

Quote:
one is right and 37,999 are wrong or they are all wrong……

Why yes… one is right! That would be the LC-MS

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Default Re: “My Holy Spirit is right yours in wrong”

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There are currently 38,000 different Protestant denominations all using sola scriptoria as their rule of faith and all claiming to be right……. Only two choices are possible
one is right and 37,999 are wrong or they are all wrong……

Also I may have been baptized when i was young catholic but knew very little of the Catholic Church until I was 34 after spending 7 years at evangelical churches seeing how from a logical perspective Protestantism and sola scriptoria is set up for failure and that was what lead me to the Catholic Church

I don’t like this way of thinking. Different cultures will equal different styles of worship which in turn will bring along different Churches and styles of Churches. Our core Trinitarian beliefs are what hold us together no matter what, and most Protestants accept that all of those Churches can be saved through Jesus Christ, as do Catholics.

I don’t see where the separation is.

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Default Re: “My Holy Spirit is right yours in wrong”

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There are currently 38,000 different Protestant denominations all using sola scriptoria as their rule of faith and all claiming to be right……. Only two choices are possible

one is right and 37,999 are wrong or they are all wrong……

Also I may have been baptized when i was young catholic but knew very little of the Catholic Church until I was 34 after spending 7 years at evangelical churches seeing how from a logical perspective Protestantism and sola scriptoria is set up for failure and that was what lead me to the Catholic Church

i sorry– i guess you missed the point-

there is a educational component that is different between the belief systems,

of catholic and christian

this is not a debate on what you perceive as the difference of the denominations

as Saint Paul said if you have the Holy Spirit you are different than those who do not have it

some christians also use mark 16

15 He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. 16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. 17 And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; 18 they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well.”

i hope this has cleared up what the comparison is–

and this comparison is a reason why many people leave the catholic demonination and seek out what might be called a spirit filled denomination, or christian assembly

you don’t have to get defensive on this– so you believe he ‘s wrong– that in it self won;t matter to a christian who is spirit filled

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Adamski, you have a lot of vigor for your faith! Keep it up!

Franlky, that your debating companion got frustrated just by the subject alone indicates that you really must have struck a chord. I pray that he seeks the Eucharist in God’s time.

Why yes… one is right! That would be the LC-MS

Well if I weren’t Roman Catholic I’d have to consider your tradition

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Default Re: “My Holy Spirit is right yours in wrong”

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Burning in the bosom v. led by the Spirit…Different lingo…same process.

However, it could well be that the Spirit did lead the guy to Mars Hill but he can’t express it very well. OTOH…

I think you did well. Think he will meet with you again?

I’m going to text him right now and ask

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Default Re: “My Holy Spirit is right yours in wrong”

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I don’t like this way of thinking. Different cultures will equal different styles of worship which in turn will bring along different Churches and styles of Churches. Our core Trinitarian beliefs are what hold us together no matter what, and most Protestants accept that all of those Churches can be saved through Jesus Christ, as do Catholics.

I don’t see where the separation is.

Interesting. So is it your view that the doctrine of the Trinity is the defining belief of a Christian? How did you arrive at such a belief?

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Default Re: “My Holy Spirit is right yours in wrong”

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Burning in the bosom v. led by the Spirit…Different lingo…same process.

However, it could well be that the Spirit did lead the guy to Mars Hill but he can’t express it very well. OTOH…

I think you did well. Think he will meet with you again?

thank you randy — after seeing how many posts you have–

it is interesting to see your miss understanding

of being led by the Holy Spirit “VS” the Mormon burning in the breast wittness of the authenticity of joseph smith as a prophet

they are comparing apples and oranges–

but you believe other wise– oh well–

i don’t know how well you function in the prophetic–

i lonly know of 1 roman catholic priest that has been successful as a type of evangelic teacher–

but at the moment i can’t remember his name–

but he does teach , instruct and educate people in how to hear the voice of God and to walk in the fullness of the Spirit– with signs and wonders–

but i’ll get back on it– and you can view his utube training seminar info, and make your own evaluation

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tell me more what does it matter

Being rebellious against man-made doctrine, is again, Biblically sound.

 
Okay. First off, you must realize that, just like any other religious movements,

 there are many many different brands.

 This goes for HRM, Messianic-Judaism, Judaism, Christianity, Catholicism, Buddhism, etc. etc. It is not really fair that you label all with issues you have of some.

 points of contention:

–They troll our churches and pick off those . . .–

Well now. Seems you hit the ground running with the ugly rhetoric.

 As far as I know, no one “trolls” churches.

 Everyone I know has come to the realization on their own accord. Every single testimony that I have heard . . . they all say the same thing.
Granted, their may be some who do what you say, but it is a very far cry from the all-inclusiveness, which you claim.
–who are discontent with their church, wounded by their church–

So if one does not agree with what their church leaders are saying, or are hurt by their brothers, they should just suck it up, and continue on?

 2 John 1:7-11 says we should not even greet someone who gives false teachings and doctrine.

 1 Timothy 6 says to flee from contradictory teachings and from those who have an unhealthy craving for controversy and for quarrels about words, which produce envy, dissension, slander, evil suspicions, and constant friction among people who are depraved in mind and deprived of the truth, imagining that godliness is a means of gain.

So are we to follow God’s word, or follow man, no matter what?
–are rebellious in one way or another,–

Rebellious against what, exactly? Against man’s dogma, or against the Word?

Those born and raised a Baptist

 were taught that dancing and drinking any kind of alcohol was a sin.

 So  did due diligence. Psalm 149:3 and 150:4 give examples of dancing in worship and praise of God. Jesus turned water into wine (ahem, alcohol) at Caanan, and he had wine (alcohol) at His last supper.

 So if the Bible is the word of God, that must mean that he approves of both activities (of course with regards to appropriateness of time and self control, as with everything in life, according to His word).
The prohibitions were/are extra-biblical, and therefore, not a sin.

I was considered rebellious by my brothers and sisters,  I was rebellious, against man made doctrine.

 I was right in line with God’s word.

 Being rebellious against man-made doctrine, is again, Biblically sound.
– or simply have itchy ears.–

There are people like that in every group. They only want to hear what makes them feel good.

 To assert that this is the fault of protestants is disingenuous at best.

– Then there are those believers who succumb to the “If you really love God, you will . . . ” appeal, –

Finish it off. If you really love God, you will keep his commandments.

 The words of Jesus affirm this. SO you are upset because people are succumbing to the words and teachings of Jesus?

–Those who say that we must walk in Torah as Yeshua/Jesus Christ did are teaching that before the work of Christ, man was not able to keep the Law, but that after the work of Christ, enabled by His Holy Spirit, we are able to keep the Law –

This is false. What most teachers say is that the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is everlasting life. Man could not, and can never, completely keep the law. In OT times, if one sinned (broke the law), they were dead. With the sacrifice of Jesus, if one sins, His blood gives us grace from the death penalty.

–We cannot. It is not possible. Jesus Christ is God. He is perfect. He is sinless. We are not God –
Indeed. But you totally miss the point.

 Even the basic meaning of Christianity is to be Christ-like. WWJD. Remember that?

 Jesus followed the Law. He came not to abolish the law, but to fulfill it. To live it perfectly. If we are to try our best to emulate Jesus (which we should do, according to Paul), than we should try and live as he did. We will never be perfect, but that does not mean to not even try.

–To say/think/believe that we can walk as Jesus walked in the way of the Law is folly,–
No one believes that we can be a perfect imitator of Jesus.

 But even Paul tells us we should try our hardest to do as such.
– and not at all how Jesus Himself commanded us to walk!–

WHAT?

Matthew 23:1-3 – “Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples: ‘The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. So you must obey them and do everything they tell you.

 But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach.’”

2 Timothy 3:16 – “All scripture is inspired by God and is useful for teaching, for refutation, for correction, and for training in righteousness…”

Matthew 5:19 – “Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.”

Jesus Himself, commands us to follow the law to the best of our ability. Any deviations are covered by grace, instead of death.

–We hear constantly from those in the  (fill in the blank),

“How do we know what sin is, anyway?” –

I have never heard anyone  ask this, but I will address it anyways.

1 John 3:4 – Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness.

Oh my. Sin is breaking, violating, disobeying and/or transgressing the law. Torah = law. So sin is when one violates Torah.
–From there they live, breathe, and eat Torah Law.–

Yes, because that is what Jesus said to do.

– While saying that Jesus’ Blood is for our salvation, they leave Him at the curb and turn to Torah for sanctification,–

No, Jesus is not left at the curb.

 The Torah sanctifies nothing. Jesus’ grace is our sanctification.

 We live by Torah, because that is what God commanded, and re-commanded through Jesus. Transgressions on Torah (sin) is covered by the blood of Jesus.

–not relying on the Holy Spirit that Jesus promised would come to be our Helper and Counselor, leading His Body into all truth–

We do rely on the Holy Spirit to guide us in what is right for our lives. 

 Another ridiculous statement.

–Instead, those who advocate Torah observance tell us that unless we live by Torah, we are engaging in willful sin–

the came cammandment is in the roman catholic church–

 if you don’t obey all the ordinances – special day, special mass’s Sunday mass–
then you are engaging in willful sin

Well, technically, according to 1 John 3:4, those that do not follow Torah, ARE engaging in willful sin..

 That does not mean that they are not going to Heaven, or anything like that.

 They are God’s child. They are covered by grace, But yet, because they failed to follow the commandments, they will be the least in Heaven, according to Jesus (Matthew 5:19).
– We are told by those who are studying ‘their Hebrew Roots’, “Did God really say . . . “ –

No, we are discerning, which Paul, quite bluntly, tells us to do.

Or would you prefer to follow blindly?

–when it comes to the New Covenant or Who Jesus Christ really is (many say He is the ‘Living Torah’).–

Did Jesus not follow Torah (the law) perfectly?

 Is He not living?

 If you answered yes to both, then you admit that Jesus is the living Torah.

–For the believer in the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, the methods utilized in the practice of Kabbalah are strictly off limits.

Even a cursory examination of the practice of Kabbalah will confirm this.

 I always marvel at the stand (fill in the blank) will take against perceived paganism in the celebrations of the Birth and Resurrection of Christ,

 but how they will not give the same examination to many of the beliefs in  to which they ascribe. (For more on this topic, see,

 “Doublemindedness in any religious Movement –.)–

As such, even Revelation tells us “those that have wisdom are to count the number of the beast.”

The Parables that Jesus spoke . . . the same ones tha even every Christian hears in Sunday School . . . were spoken with PaRDeS. Furthermore, to teach them, one must use PaRDeS.

Pardes (Jewish exegesis)

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Pardes refers to (types of) approaches to biblical exegesis in rabbinic Judaism (or – simpler – interpretation of text in Torah study). The term, sometimes also spelled PaRDeS, is an acronym formed from the name initials of the following four approaches:

  • Peshat (פְּשָׁט) — “plain” (“simple”) or the direct meaning.[1]
  • Remez (רֶמֶז) — “hints” or the deep (allegoric: hidden or symbolic) meaning beyond just the literal sense.
  • Derash (דְּרַשׁ) — from Hebrew darash: “inquire” (“seek”) — the comparative (midrashic) meaning, as given through similar occurrences.
  • Sod (סוֹד) (pronounced with a long O as in ‘bone’) — “secret” (“mystery”) or the esoteric/mystical meaning, as given through inspiration or revelation.

Each type of Pardes interpretation examines the extended meaning of a text. As a general rule, the extended meaning never contradicts the base meaning. The Peshat means the plain or contextual meaning of the text. Remez is the allegorical meaning. Derash includes the metaphorical meaning, and Sod represents the hidden meaning. There is often considerable overlap, for example when legal understandings of a verse are influenced by mystical interpretations or when a “hint” is determined by comparing a word with other instances of the same word.
Some thinkers, such as the Tolaat Yaakov, divide Pardes into Peshat, Remez, Din (law), and Sod. According to this understanding, Derash is divided into the homiletics, which are classified under Remez, and legal interpretations, which are classified under Din.

– For example, many teachers in the hebrew roots movement teach the

‘Two House Theology’ or the ‘Northern Kingdom’ bit.

 That teaching is a re-hash of British Israelism with a Hebrew Roots twist.

 Most of it is taken straight from the Worldwide Church of God, aka Armstronism. –

Actually, if you would do your diligence, you would find that two-house is scripturally sound, and has NOTHING to do with British-Israelism.

 Even Jews, including the government of Israel, believe that there is a lost 10 tribes out there somewhere.

 Heck, Jesus Himself said that He came for the lost tribes.

Furthermore, Ezekiel 37 and Romans 11 confirm the teaching of Believers being grafted into Israel.

roman catholic was replacement theology.

If you do not with to see the truth set before you, that is fine.

It is your life, and you must deal with the consequences of your choices, just as I must deal with mine.

But for the love of all that is good, please do some basic research before you decide to slander a whole group of people who are trying to follow the Word of God.
~

 

Coming Great Deception

Rapping the “Rapture”

 

 
 
 
 
 

 

 
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Rapping …  the  … Rapture  

This is the BASIS for the Fundamentalist / Protestant position of those who choose to believe in a “Third coming of Christ. Because this not an issue that either leads to Salvation or eternal damnation, I choose not to spend a great amount of time on it.

“Preterists and Historicists call us “Futurists” (Premillennialists) partly because we believe Jesus will return to Earth at the end of the great tribulation period and before the 1000 years of peace begins, but largely because we believe the Antichrist will come on the scene in the future. However, Preterists believe the Antichrist and the Second Coming happened almost 2000 years ago (way back in 70 AD), and (again) we Premillennialists believe the antichrist (and the Second Coming) will come in the future. The Historicists also believe the Antichrist appeared in the past, but that the Second Coming will take place at the end of the 1,000 years (the Millennium).”

http://arkhaven.org/eschatology.htm [a non-catholic site]

Catholic and Biblical evidence points to only the Incarnation of Christ and His Second and final coming: The Final judgment! At the end of the world as we know it. Anything beyond this is man’s fables, and unguided by the Holy Spirit understanding.

John 16:8: And when he is come, he will convince the world of sin, and of justice, and of judgment. .. Matthew 24:5 For many will come in my name saying, I am Christ: and they will seduce many .. Matthew 24:42 Watch ye therefore, because ye know not what hour your Lord will come. Matthew 24:44 Wherefore be you also ready, because at what hour you know not the Son of man will come .. Luke 12:40 Be you then also ready: for at what hour you think not, the Son of man will come. ..John 14:3 And if I shall go, and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and will take you to myself; that where I am, you also may be. .. John 14:18 I will not leave you orphans, I will come to you. ..Revelation 3:3Have in mind therefore in what manner thou hast received and heard: and observe, and do penance. If then thou shalt not watch, I will come to thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know at what hour I will come to thee. .. Revelation 11:14 The second woe is past: and behold the third woe will come quickly: Haydock’s Catholic Commentary: Ver. 14. These visions belonged to the second woe, and the third woe is at hand. — Second woe; the persecution of antichrist. — Third woe, or the day of judgment, is near at hand.”

Here is some additional [opinion] information for those who may have an interest in this topic.

http://www.forerunner.com/eschatology/X0004_4._Disp_Rebuttal.html  [a non-catholic site]

“Two Views of the Bible

Dispensationalism is derived from the idea that God has worked in different ways throughout history through different economies or dispensations. A dispensationalist makes a severe division between the Old and New Covenants, God acting with wrath and vengeance in the Old Testament and with love and grace in the New Testament. Dispensationalism teaches the imminent “secret” rapture of the Church, divides the end times into several dispensations, and teaches a conspiratorial view of history with evil forces rivaling the forces of God.

John Nelson Darby, founder of a group called the Plymouth Brethren in the 1830s, is the father of modern dispensationalism. Darby taught that the Second Coming of Christ was imminent. He rejected the creeds of the early Church and believed social reform to be useless. C.I. Scofield, a Texas pastor, popularized the teachings of J.N. Darby in a systematic theology known as dispensational premillennialism. C.I. Scofield first compiled his reference Bible as a teaching aid for missionaries. It soon became one of the most widely used tools for Bible study among entire denominations such as Southern Baptists and Disciples of Christ.

Despite the fact that many of the early dispensationalists were orthodox Christians, this shift in theology paved the way for an much greater error, antinomianism, which means literally “anti-law.” Antinomianism states that since man is saved by faith alone, and since faith frees the Christian from the law, he no longer bound to obey the law.

Antinomianism creates a false theological system in which the laws of the Bible cannot apply to governing the individual or society. Dispensationalism promoted antinomian thinking by de-emphasizing the relationship of the Old Testament law to the individual under the New Testament. In turn this led to a waning influence of Christians in society, since most of the laws pertaining to civil government are found in the Old Testament.

To the orthodox Christian

, the unity of the covenants of Scripture and the moral law of God are obvious foundations of Christian social order. The covenantal idea of God’s unchanging eternal covenant and a corresponding high view the moral law of God, stand in stark contrast to dispensationalism and antinomianism.

The dispensational theory of premillennialism has gained great popularity mainly among modern evangelicals. The dispensational view of premillennialism, with its elaborate conspiracy theories, time tables, charts and graphic scenarios, is essentially a chiliast error. It has been most often accompanied by the false notion that the Second Coming is a predictable event with an identifiable time-table. This is despite Christ’s warning that “it is not for you to know the times or the seasons” (Acts 1:7).

The fascination with the exact date of the Second Coming always appears as history approaches years with big round numbers. Chiliasm reappeared shortly before 500, 1000 and 1500 AD. Not surprisingly, we saw a reemergence of this error in full force as we approached 2000. Financially profitable publications advancing theories and speculations on the Second Coming are appearing everywhere. In contrast to Christ’s biblical admonition against predicting the time of the Second Coming (Mat. 25:13), many evangelical books authored in recent years have predicted the exact time of the Second Advent, for example

: Hal Lindsey’s Late Great Planet Earth, Edgar Whisenant’s, 88 Reasons Why the Rapture Will Be In 1988, and Harold Camping’s 1994, which was a best seller in 1993, and the novel series, Left Behind, by Tim LaHaye

However, now that we have passed the millennial milestone of 2000, many Christians are reconsidering their eschatological viewpoint

. Many Christians have been taught that geo-political Israel would be a focus of end-times events. Seeing now that over 50 years have passed since the establishment of a Jewish nation-state, many are reconsidering an alternate interpretation of both the Mount Olivet Discourse and the book of Revelation.

What about the rapture?

In my rebuttal to classic premillennialism, I argue that the purpose of the book of Daniel is to point the Jews to the exact time and circumstances surrounding the coming of the Messiah. The main purpose of Daniel’s prophecy is to point to the first advent, not the second advent. Further, the context of 1 Corinthians 15:23-25;50-54 indicates a simultaneous Second Coming and final judgment.

So what about the rapture? Is the rapture secret or not? Postmillennialists believe in the rapture. We simply do not believe in the dispensationalist version of this great event. The rapture is synonymous with the resurrection of the righteous. However, this event will not be secret. It will not occur seven years prior to a future millennium, nor 1007 years prior to the final judgment. Postmillennialists believe in the rapture. We believe it will occur at the time of the Second Coming, just before the final judgment, after the millennial reign is complete.”  …

End of this Quote that is greatly edited as a FYI.

CATHOLICS & the “Rapture”  is a DUH! ?????? [PJM]

Raptured or Not?

A Catholic Understanding …“What is the Catholic teaching”

onhttp://www.americancatholic.org/Newsletters/CU/ac1005.asp

“The Rapture?” It was over 30 years ago that a student in my Scripture class asked me that question. Drawing on all my years of Catholic education (kindergarten through the seminary and doctoral studies), I replied, “The what?” I had never heard of it.

“In the intervening years, talk of the Rapture has become much more pervasive in our culture. Through radio and TV preachers, the Moral Majority movement of the 1970s and 1980s, the turn of the millennium in the year 2000, and the phenomenal success of the “Left Behind” series of novels (recently completed at volume 12 and earning a cover story in the May 24, 2004 issue of Newsweek magazine, it is likely that few Catholics today would share my response. They would, however, probably still be a bit puzzled by it, and ask another question as well, “Will we, as Catholics, share in the Rapture?”

In this Update we will address these questions. We will begin by looking at the meaning and origin of the Rapture doctrine. Then we will briefly consider the key biblical passage which is foundational to it. Finally, we will highlight some problem areas it presents

The Rapture doctrine: what and when?

But what do we mean by “the Rapture”? The word can be used in different ways. Spiritual writers have used it for mystical union with God, or our final sharing in God’s heavenly life. This is not the sense we are using it in here; we are using it in a much more specific way.

For many American fundamentalist Christians, the Rapture forms part of the scenario of events that will happen at the end of the world. While differences exist among various groups, the more common view goes like this: At the end, Jesus will come on the clouds of heaven and the righteous (“the saints”) will be raptured, that is, caught up into the air, to be with Christ. They will be separated from sinners who will remain on the earth to endure a period of great suffering (the Tribulation).

After this, Jesus will rule on earth for 1000 years (the Millennium); finally, then, Jesus comes at the end in judgment (the parousia) and will inaugurate the new heavens and the new earth. The Rapture is significant, then, as the first of the events that mark this “end of the world.” This scenario appears as such nowhere in the New Testament; it is put together through a particular interpretation of various and scattered texts.

While speculation about the end of the world is as old as Christianity, this particular scenario is not. In fact, it is not yet 200 years old!

Origins of the Rapture

The Rapture seems to have been invented by a British religious figure named John Nelson Darby (1800-1882). He was ordained in the Church of Ireland and worked there to convert Catholics away from their folly. He was extremely pessimistic about what he saw as the state of the world and the state of the Church. He eventually left it, joining a dissident group called the Plymouth Brethren of which he soon became a prominent leader.

About 1830, he began teaching that Jesus’ coming at the end of time would be preceded by a “rapture of the saints.” Some members of his own Brethren community objected that this was not biblically founded, but Darby dismissed any criticism. It had, he claimed, been revealed to him by God.

He would eventually distance himself from this group and travel extensively in the 1860s and 1870s in Europe, the United States, and Canada, where his views were very influential. (Especially important is their appearance in the Scofield Reference Bible, which was printed first in 1909. The 1967 edition is still in print and is very popular in many Protestant fundamentalist circles.)

Despite Darby’s denials, scholars have suggested several possible influences on his Rapture views. In 1830, in Port Glasgow, Scotland, a 15-year-old girl, Margaret MacDonald, a follower of a charismatic Scottish preacher, Edward Irving, attended a healing service at which she saw a vision of a two-stage return of Christ. Darby adopted and expanded her vision.

Another suggestion traces the influence to a Jesuit priest, Manuel Lacunza (1731-1801), who was born in Chile but came to Italy in 1767 where he would spend the rest of his life. Posing as a converted Jew (under the pseudonym Juan Josafat Ben Ezra), he wrote, in Spanish, a large apocalyptic work entitled The Coming of the Messiah in Glory and Majesty. The book appeared first in 1811, 10 years after his death. In 1827, it was translated into English by none other than Edward Irving, an acquaintance of and possible influence on Darby. Given Darby’s hatred of Catholics, this possible influence adds an ironic touch!

The ‘Rapture text’ in Scripture

Those who propose the Rapture maintain that it is found in Scripture. From its first appearance, as we have seen, others have questioned this. What are we to think?

Written by Paul from Corinth, about 50 or 51 A.D., less than 20 years after the death of Christ, 1 Thessalonians is commonly considered the oldest book of the New Testament. It is clear that these earliest Christians were eagerly expecting Jesus’ return in glory at the end of the world. As time went on and this was delayed, two pastoral problems emerged that Paul addresses in these lines.

The first is the question of when. Paul tells them that they “know very well” that we do not know the time of the end; it will come like a thief in the night. This becomes a truism throughout the New Testament, appearing in the Synoptic Gospels

(Mt 24:42,44; Mark 13:21-23, 32-33; Luke 12:39-40; 17:20-24; 21:34-35); Acts of the Apostles (1:6-7); the Letters (our passage and 2 Peter 3:9-10); and even in the Book of Revelation, not once but twice (Rv 3:3; 16:15)! Needless to say, this clear teaching has been consistently ignored by many up to the present day.

The second question seems more urgent. Since Christ’s coming was delayed, some of the community had died. Those who were left became worried: Would the dead lose out in some way at Christ’s return? Would they be at any disadvantage?

In describing Jesus’ return, Paul combines imagery drawn from two sources. From biblical apocalyptic (e.g., Daniel 7:13), he gets the coming on the clouds of heaven with the angelic trumpets. From his Greco-Roman experience, he gets the imagery of an arrival of a king on a state visit (in Greek, parousia); a joyful multitude goes out to meet him on the road and accompany him back to the city.

The dead will rise first and then we, the living, will be “snatched” up to join them in the air. Many pagan epitaphs of the time spoke of the living “being snatched” away by death. Here Paul speaks of our “being snatched” up to join the Lord and to welcome him at his return.

In the ancient world, the “air” was a scary place filled with unseen beings, many of them hostile. Together with Christ, there will be nothing to fear. Paul means this as a message of comfort and consolation for the Thessalonians. Christians do grieve the loss of their loved ones, but they should not do so “as others do who have no hope.”

The passage is about Jesus’ return in glory at the end of the world. The New Testament knows of only one such return. There is no “first” second coming!

Further, the passage says absolutely nothing about being “separated from” sinners; the whole thrust is exactly the opposite. It is about “being together with” the dead. There is no suggestion that once we meet Jesus “in the air” that he then turns around and goes back, taking us with him, to return later.

The conclusion is clear: There is no basis whatsoever in this passage for a doctrine of the Rapture. To see such a doctrine here is a complete distortion of the biblical text. If we were to examine other biblical texts often cited in support of this doctrine (e.g., Mt 24:40-41; Luke 17:34-35; Rv 3:10), the results would be the same.

Church teaching on the Rapture

A s Roman Catholics, we might ask, “Has the Church censured anything regarding the Rapture doctrine?” The answer would have to be no and yes.

No, to my knowledge, there has never been an explicit statement relative to the Rapture. But as we have seen, the Rapture forms part of a particular millennial expectation based on a particular use of biblical texts. Yes, the Church has explicitly rejected both this kind of speculation and this way of interpreting the Scriptures.

The Council of Ephesus (431) denounced it as “a deviation and a fable.” It was denounced again in 1516 at the Fifth Lateran Council. In 1824, the work of Manuel Lacunza (noted above) was placed on the Index of Forbidden Books. In 1941 and 1944, responding to questions from the Archbishop of Santiago, Chile, the Congregation of the Holy Office (now the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith) again rejected this kind of millennial speculation with explicit reference to the work of Lacunza. As recently as April 22, 1998, with the turn of the millennium approaching, Pope John Paul II warned again against this way of thinking.

In interpreting biblical texts, the Church has stressed that it is essential that we take account of their literary genres since truth is expressed differently in different types of writing (Vatican II: Dei Verbum #12; Catechism of the Catholic Church #110).

In its 1993 document, The Interpretation of the Bible in the Church, the Pontifical Biblical Commission both reaffirmed this (Section I-A) and rejected as inadequate the so-called “fundamentalist” interpretation at play in the Rapture doctrine and scenario (Section I-F).

As John Paul II expressed it on April 22, 1998, “We know that the apocalyptic images of the eschatological discourse about the end of all things should be interpreted in light of their intense symbolism.” It is not language that should be taken literally

Problems with the Rapture

We might conclude by asking, “What view of the world is encouraged, even legitimized by the Rapture/Left Behind ideology?” It can be fairly described as an extremely pessimistic, “outsider mentality.” It feels “left out” of the world and of society, so it eagerly anticipates leaving all of that behind. In fact, God shares their disgust, and the signs are clear: God is coming soon to put an end to it. The world itself is doomed to destruction, so there is obviously no point in caring for it or protecting it now.

Everyone left behind on the earth at the time of the Rapture will be subject to the sufferings of the Tribulation. The violence envisaged and described (as in the “Left Behind” novels) is almost pornographic in detail.

The spirit of vengeance is much in evidence as those “left behind” are subjected to extreme anguish. The hope that the earth and most of its inhabitants will soon be destroyed is a cause of happiness and rejoicing among those who are eager to be separated from sinners and “raptured” out of the world because then they will be with the Lord.

To this we might juxtapose another, very different, world view. The world of God’s creation is basically good (Gn 1). Though it is marred and broken by sin and death, it is still created in, through and for Jesus Christ

(Col 1:15-20). The world shares in the redemption of God and even now is groaning, awaiting the fullness of redemption (Rom 8:19-23) which will be manifested as a (re)new(ed) heavens and (re)new(ed) earth (Rv 21:1-5).

God sent the Son into this world out of love to show us the way to life. Jesus did not separate himself from sinners but, on the contrary, they seem to have been his preferred company. If we want to be with the Lord, we should be together with sinners.

God sent the Son into this world out of love to show us the way to life. Jesus did not separate himself from sinners but, on the contrary, they seem to have been his preferred company. If we want to be with the Lord, we should be together with sinners.

In all the Gospels, he is criticized by the self-righteous, “He eats with publicans and sinners” (e.g., Luke 5:29-32), but, as he assures us, there is more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over 99 just

(Luke 15:7,10). The day of the Lord’s second coming is delayed, in fact, precisely because “ [the Lord] is patient with you, not wanting any to perish, but all to come to repentance” (2 Peter 3:9-10). Jesus’ harshest words are reserved for those who think they are secure and look down on others (e.g., the Pharisee and the publican, Luke 18:9-14).

Even though we may long for the day of the Lord’s return in glory, the time of that return is unknown. Not even Jesus knows; only the Father knows (

Mark 13:32). We are warned against false prophets who say that the end is near (Mt 24:23-26), but Jesus assures us, “I am with you always, to the end of the age” (Mt 28:20).

Until that time, we are to be about the Lord’s work, “Blessed are those servants whom the master will find at work when he arrives”

(Mt 24:46). If we look too eagerly for Jesus’ return on the clouds of heaven, we may pass him by too often on the street (Mt 25:31-46). It would seem that what gets left behind most in the “Left Behind” mentality is the whole Bible.

What’s a Catholic to believe?

We began with several questions: What is the Catholic teaching on the Rapture? There is none; there is no traditional Christian teaching on the Rapture. It is a late, and rather suspect, arrival on the scene.

Will Catholics be raptured? No, of course not, but then neither will be anyone else. But we are left behind with one final—and most important—question. It is not about the future, the question, Will I be taken up by the Rapture? Rather, it’s more about a present question: Will I be taken in by it?” End Quotes this article BY:

Michael D. Guinan, O.F.M., Ph.D., is a professor of Old Testament, Semitic languages and biblical spirituality at the Franciscan School of Theology in Berkeley, California

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    Mythology and the Coming Great Deception

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the Coming Great Deception that Yeshua (Jesus) warned about

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Find out how mythology, the gods of the ancient world and our own system of government are all tied to the Coming Great Deception that Yeshua (Jesus) warned about.

 

myths of old are true and how they relate to Nimrod.

 

Uploaded on Sep 27, 2011

Gary talks with Rob Skiba about Mythology and the Coming Great Deception. Rob expands on his belief that the myths of old are true and how they relate to Nimrod.